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• Jun 27, 2004 - 22:48

  # Comment by Jim D

  

  Where is America now? Apathy to dependency? Sounds about right.

  "The American People can rely (depend) on us, and our Homeland Security Office to protect them from the evil Terrorists! And to keep the price of gas low at the pumps by making war on all the oil bearing countries! Vote Republican!"

  OK, George!

• Jul 01, 2004 - 11:53

  # Comment by 3rdParty

  And that quote by "Tyler" is also most likely false, or at least not something that can be validated. Here is what Snopes.com has to say about the quote, however:

  "The quote from "Alexander Tyler" is very likely fictitious. His name was actually "Lord Woodhouselee, Alexander Fraser Tytler," and he was a Scottish historian/professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

  However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler. This quote has also been cited as being from Tytler's Universal History or from his Elements of General History, Ancient and Modern, books that do exist. These books seem the most likely source of the quote, as they contain extensive discussions of the political systems in historic civilizations, including Athens. Universal History was published after, and based upon, Elements of General History, which was a collection of Professor Tytler's lecture notes.

  Tytler's book, Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century, is available for viewing and searching on-line: http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ABW5010

  The complete text was searched for each of the following phrases:

  Athenian Republic democracy generous gifts public treasury loose fiscal fiscal bondage 200 years two hundred years spiritual faith

  In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote."

• Jul 01, 2004 - 22:03

  # Comment by GreyWyvern

  

  Thanks for reminding me why I didn't want to post anything political on this blog.

  I'll make sure to think about this the next time I get the urge. :/

• Jul 13, 2004 - 20:31

  # Comment by KB

  http://www.bartleby.com/73/425.html

  Looks like Snopes might have it wrong. I have not actually read the book but, ...

  NUMBER: 425 AUTHOR: Alexander Fraser Tytler (1747–1813) QUOTATION: It is not, perhaps, unreasonable to conclude, that a pure and perfect democracy is a thing not attainable by man, constituted as he is of contending elements of vice and virtue, and ever mainly influenced by the predominant principle of self-interest. It may, indeed, be confidently asserted, that there never was that government called a republic, which was not ultimately ruled by a single will, and, therefore, (however bold may seem the paradox,) virtually and substantially a monarchy. ATTRIBUTION: ALEXANDER FRASER TYTLER, LORD WOODHOUSELEE, University History, vol. 1, book 2, chapter 6, p. 216 (1838). SUBJECTS: Democracy

• Aug 23, 2004 - 10:06

  # Comment by Annie Oglypuss

  

  If voters are permitted knowledge of potential revelations contained within Area 51, then true democracy can be restored to the phrase "...government for the people..", which until then is just another empty slogan designed to mask the activities of a select few.

• Sep 07, 2004 - 11:39

  # Comment by Ricker

  

  Perhaps this quote from nearly two centuries later will help validate the Tytler quote: "The release of initiative and enterprise made possible by self-government ultimately generates disintegrating forces from within. Again and again, after freedom brings opportunity and some degree of plenty, the competent become selfish, luxury loving and complacent; the incompetent and unfortunate grow envious and covetous; and all three groups turn aside from the hard road of freedom to worship the golden calf of economic security. The historical cycle seems to be: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more." Arnold Toynbee (1889 - 1975)